SNRIs

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi all, >The first is a note about Larry Hoover’s ideas on unipolar depression (a >misnomer) and a separate news group for sufferers of major depression. >Larry needs to realize that the correct medical terminology for what he >calls unipolar depression is ‘MAJOR depression".  Stop using the idiotic >term ‘unipolar’.  Some people have mild major depression which can often >be treated in short order; the person who has it may be lucky, and they >may never have another depressive episode after they are properly >treated with cognitive/medicine protocol.  After 4 episodes of major >depression, the patient is usually treated with some antidepressant for >the rest of their life.  Severe major depression maybe a case that is >hard to treat, and the patient is more suicidal or non-functional.  If >the patient suffers with general anxiety disorder (very common) along >with their major depression, the pathologic condition is harder to >treat.  Any person suffering from any mental disease should be open to >all areas of mental health, and they should not think their condition is >really that much different from any other neurotransmitter abnormality. >I do wish the real nut cases posting to this group, including the >scientologist bunch, would stick to medicine related questions and >answers.   >An interesting note and relevant to the reason for the newsgroup:  After >suffering horrible migraines (eventually they were daily – up to 8 hour >or more) and increased vasomotor rhinitis for 3 years, I found the >reasons for this phenomena after lots of trials (weaning on and off >drugs — and going without medicine while suffering the hell of ‘major’ >depression — TRUE GRIT).  I found Effexor, Paxil,(a >few other antidepressants possibly) and diazepam some how screwed up the >amine/neurotransmitter balance causing my migraines. My guess is an >increased histamine production or some weird vaso reaction caused by the >same cells (basophiles and others) involved in serotonin production or >uptake.  Possibly blood platelets may have been involved.  The same >reaction is initiated by NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) >in my system.  Even after a few aspirin are taken (time element >decreased), a migraine starts within 15 – 30 minutes.  A person must >take it upon him or herself to study their illnesses as much as >possible; so, they can aid their doctor (which should be a trained >psychiatrist – after evaluation by a trained psychologist — GPs should >not be treating major depression).  I’m taking Celexa and Klonopin now >without the migraines or increased rhinitis misery — thank God!!!!!!! >Let’s talk anti depression medicines here or something closely related. >People who need to shock others or discuss terrorism, holistic crap, >scientology concepts, or other topics not related to depression >medication should announce they will be at some Irc group or some other >’Chat’ group forum meet with folks to discuss their off the wall ideas. >Good luck to all who suffer any mental torture: this news group is big >enough for all mental illnesses. Folks posting here would only stick to >the main reason for the group so they can help themselves and others. >The group has gone to hell in the last year.  Too many folks are posting >crap when they should be """""taking a walk outside in the fresh >air"""""""". >Sincerely — Randy

I agree Randy…even though I believe Larry Hoover is basically a good guy. He is not a scientology type. There are several assholes on this NG whose views on meds and ECT and psychiatry in general are 100% inline with those of scientology however. Seems strange huh? Something you should know Randy is that this NG has totally gone downhill from what it once was. Its been ruined by the anti-med camp to a large extent. Eric Krispy Kreme is gonna take over America…not arab terrorists. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

> Hi all,

Hello yourself. > The first is a note about Larry Hoover’s ideas on unipolar depression (a > misnomer) and a separate news group for sufferers of major depression.

<spock eyebrow> Randy, it is considered to be proper to lurk a little while before posting, so as to grasp the variety of threads. This is so as to not make a fool of oneself. As I have clearly stated, the misnomer here applies to the naming of the groups in this hierarchy. The definition "depression and mood disorders" is not only redundant but misleading. It is, however, a permanent characteristic of the group. Only one poster insists on distinguishing between unipolar depression and any other mood disorder. My purpose in posting the prosposal, also clearly stated, was to determine whether or not there was any support for the idea of creating the group which that other poster had believed was already in existence. It will apparently not have the support required to go ahead with making a formal proposal at alt.config. Case closed. With reference to the issue of the utility of the term "unipolar depression", do a Google search using the specific phrase. You will find nearly 10,000 hits. The term is useful. Therefore it has use. The Surgeon General of the United States uses it: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/chapter4/sec3.html The Merck Manual uses it: http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual/section15/chapter189/189b.htm Medline uses it. That the APA uses different terminology in the DSM does not render the term inappropriate. It clearly discriminates between dysthymia/cyclothymia and bipolar disorder/major depression, and in fewer words. > Larry needs to realize that the correct medical terminology for what he > calls unipolar depression is ‘MAJOR depression".

I don’t need to realize anything. The correct APA terminology for one particular mood disorder is Major Depression. The World Health Organization uses quite a different diagnostic structure. I am quite familiar with the DSM. BTW, you’re preaching to the choir. > Stop using the idiotic > term ‘unipolar’.

The only thing idiotic here is that you have posted this ad hominem drivel twice. You received no reply the first time, so you thought it useful to post it again? I thought you were trying to restrict discussion topics to medication? Or does that not apply to you? > Some people have mild major depression which can often > be treated in short order; the person who has it may be lucky, and they > may never have another depressive episode after they are properly > treated with cognitive/medicine protocol.  After 4 episodes of major > depression, the patient is usually treated with some antidepressant for > the rest of their life.  Severe major depression maybe a case that is > hard to treat, and the patient is more suicidal or non-functional.  If > the patient suffers with general anxiety disorder (very common) along > with their major depression, the pathologic condition is harder to > treat.  Any person suffering from any mental disease should be open to > all areas of mental health, and they should not think their condition is > really that much different from any other neurotransmitter abnormality. > I do wish the real nut cases posting to this group, including the > scientologist bunch, would stick to medicine related questions and > answers.

Ahem. I’m waiting for you to begin. > An interesting note and relevant to the reason for the newsgroup:  After > suffering horrible migraines (eventually they were daily – up to 8 hour > or more) and increased vasomotor rhinitis for 3 years, I found the > reasons for this phenomena after lots of trials (weaning on and off > drugs — and going without medicine while suffering the hell of ‘major’ > depression — TRUE GRIT).  I found Effexor, Paxil,(a > few other antidepressants possibly) and diazepam some how screwed up the > amine/neurotransmitter balance causing my migraines. My guess is an > increased histamine production or some weird vaso reaction caused by the > same cells (basophiles and others) involved in serotonin production or > uptake.  Possibly blood platelets may have been involved.  The same > reaction is initiated by NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) > in my system.  Even after a few aspirin are taken (time element > decreased), a migraine starts within 15 – 30 minutes.

A quick perusal of Medline reveals that your reaction is totally idiosyncratic; I cannot find so much as a case report which shows any other person reacting to those medications in this way. However, looking at the pharmacokinetics of the meds you named reveals one key point; they all rely on and affect the activity of the hepatic P450 isozyme 2D6. My guess is that you have very low 2D6 activity. The range of activity between individuals is greater than 100-fold, with the least activity most commonly found in white people of northern European descent. Your reaction to acetylsalycilate is also idiosyncratic, but again, I would look to liver enzymes for the triggering reaction. All blood flowing past the gut first passes through the liver. ASA induces some enzymes, while also permanently inhibiting others (e.g. cylco-oxygenase). > A person must > take it upon him or herself to study their illnesses as much as > possible; so, they can aid their doctor (which should be a trained > psychiatrist – after evaluation by a trained psychologist — GPs should > not be treating major depression).

I’m in absolute agreement here. > I’m taking Celexa and Klonopin now > without the migraines or increased rhinitis misery — thank God!!!!!!!

Celexa uses P450 2C19, while clonazepam utilizes 3A4. Sounds like a good match up this time. I believe that if you do a websearch on "migraine diet" or "migraine trigger" you will find that certain foods are commonly associated with the induction of migraines. There is a distinction here between induced versus i diopathic migraine. The medications which affected 2D6 probably left you vulnerable to vasoactive effects of amines in foodstuffs. > Let’s talk anti depression medicines here or something closely related. > People who need to shock others or discuss terrorism, holistic crap, > scientology concepts, or other topics not related to depression > medication should announce they will be at some Irc group or some other > ‘Chat’ group forum meet with folks to discuss their off the wall ideas.

Thanks for coming in and correcting us all. > Good luck to all who suffer any mental torture: this news group is big > enough for all mental illnesses.

<Standing ovation!> > Folks posting here would only stick to > the main reason for the group so they can help themselves and others. > The group has gone to hell in the last year.  Too many folks are posting > crap when they should be """""taking a walk outside in the fresh > air"""""""". > Sincerely — Randy

Regards, Larry

Response:

…….cut > <spock eyebrow> > Randy, it is considered to be proper to lurk a little while before posting, > so as to grasp the variety of threads. This is so as to not make a fool of > oneself.

Larry, I hope you start posting here more often – your material is always so classy – noblesse oblige. Squiggles

Response:

> I agree Randy…even though I believe Larry Hoover is basically a good guy. He > is not a scientology type. There are several assholes on this NG whose views on > meds and ECT and psychiatry in general are 100% inline with those of > scientology however. Seems strange huh? > Something you should know Randy is that this NG has totally gone downhill from > what it once was. Its been ruined by the anti-med camp to a large extent.

How does expression of differing opinions on topics ruin a group?  I can appreciate your mourning your loss of hegemonic power in ASDM, but ruined? All thats ruined is your reign seizure.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I agree Randy…even though I believe Larry Hoover is basically a good guy. He > is not a scientology type. There are several assholes on this NG whose views on > meds and ECT and psychiatry in general are 100% inline with those of > scientology however. Seems strange huh? > Something you should know Randy is that this NG has totally gone downhill from > what it once was. Its been ruined by the anti-med camp to a large extent. > How does expression of differing opinions on topics ruin a group?  I can > appreciate your mourning your loss of hegemonic power in ASDM, but ruined? > All thats ruined is your reign seizure.

Reign seizure.  That’s when you give a crown ECT. Differing opinions.  Do you have opinions about anything besides Eric? Ralph V – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Thank you Larry for clarifying the use of the term ‘unipolar’.  I have noted you do discuss matters pertaining to depression medications. Don’t get upset.  I do lurk and observe the many posts to this news group, but I have seen so many nut cases I grew weary of following the threads.  I’ve posted to this news group many times over the last several years, and I have got help from some suggestions by those who I’m sorry my verbose remarks seemed like a personal attack; they were not meant to.  I did learn from your response to my peeved post.  Some idiots posting here think this is a platform for all there aches and pains in their life; they should post to """"alt.support. depression or go to some ‘Chat group’"""""".   When I speak of idiots and nut cases, I’m speaking of people not seeking mental illness help when they need it, people not aiding in medication problem related to depression here at this newsgroup, and the Scientologist OCD nut cases.  You contribute Larry, and I’m sorry I attacked you. I reposted my remark to the thread because I did have some medicine related information, and I did add to the post.  The remarks on ‘unipolar’ can be debated, but they do not really add to anti depression medicine related topics. I think a lot of visitors to this news group have been scared off be all the off the wall postings I’ve seen in the last year.    As for a separate newsgroup for just people with MAJOR depression, I did think the way Larry did or does.  After leading a group of people with disabilities physical and emotional, I come to conclusion there is much to learn from all challenged people.  I quote from my post that upset Larry — "Any person suffering from any mental disease should be open to all areas of mental health, and they should not think their condition is really that much different from any other neurotransmitter abnormality". Maybe you are correct Larry.  Oh your migraine ideas were okay, but they were wrong in this case.  Like you — I try to study all things that relate to my current illness (what ever that may be).  Sorry Larry.  Larry goes on and on about my NSAID reaction and Migraine response, but this information was not totally unknown to me.  Larry is quoted " A quick perusal of Medline reveals that your reaction is totally  idiosyncratic; I cannot find so much as a case report which shows any other person reacting to those medications in this way."  Yes it is strange but true Larry.  I’ve tried man NSAIDS and get the same reaction as I do with the NSAID aspirin — weird huh!!! Medline is not such a hot source of info.  I’ve seen sensationalism with no follow up at this poor excuse for a medical news magazine.  Each person reacts differently to individual anti depressants, and the known chemistry of anti depressant medicine reactions in an individual is still very close to "the DARK AGES"; so, don’t don’t bother in giving uptake markers for serotonin and such — Larry.  I’m not a condescending jerk, but I did sound like it.  I did get Larry’s dander up — that is for sure!!!!!  At least I use my real E-mail address unlike so many who post here. I understand the stigma attached to depression by the ignorant folks of the world, but we must not be afraid of showing who we are.  Larry is a lot like me — he has a temper — he knows he’s correct most the time — and he will probably post to this post like I did to his post to my post.  Larry is a good guy, and he is studying all he can to better himself.   A Larry quote to me "I thought you were trying to restrict discussion topics to medication? Or does that not apply to you?" In each of my posts there is a sharing of information or a query regarding medication.  He was pissed. Lets talk medicines.  Has anyone suffered a Celexa poop out?  If so, how long and at what dosage were you at before the medicine no longer worked for you? Sincerely — Randy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > Hello yourself. > The first is a note about Larry Hoover’s ideas on unipolar depression (a > misnomer) and a separate news group for sufferers of major depression. > <spock eyebrow> > Randy, it is considered to be proper to lurk a little while before posting, > so as to grasp the variety of threads. This is so as to not make a fool of > oneself. > As I have clearly stated, the misnomer here applies to the naming of the > groups in this hierarchy. The definition "depression and mood disorders" is > not only redundant but misleading. It is, however, a permanent > characteristic of the group. > Only one poster insists on distinguishing between unipolar depression and > any other mood disorder. My purpose in posting the prosposal, also clearly > stated, was to determine whether or not there was any support for the idea > of creating the group which that other poster had believed was already in > existence. It will apparently not have the support required to go ahead with > making a formal proposal at alt.config. Case closed. > With reference to the issue of the utility of the term "unipolar > depression", do a Google search using the specific phrase. You will find > nearly 10,000 hits. > The term is useful. Therefore it has use. The Surgeon General of the United > States uses it: > http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/chapter4/sec3.html > The Merck Manual uses it: > http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual/section15/chapter189/189b.htm > Medline uses it. That the APA uses different terminology in the DSM does not > render the term inappropriate. It clearly discriminates between > dysthymia/cyclothymia and bipolar disorder/major depression, and in fewer > words. > Larry needs to realize that the correct medical terminology for what he > calls unipolar depression is ‘MAJOR depression". > I don’t need to realize anything. The correct APA terminology for one > particular mood disorder is Major Depression. The World Health Organization > uses quite a different diagnostic structure. I am quite familiar with the > DSM. > BTW, you’re preaching to the choir. > Stop using the idiotic > term ‘unipolar’. > The only thing idiotic here is that you have posted this ad hominem drivel > twice. You received no reply the first time, so you thought it useful to > post it again? I thought you were trying to restrict discussion topics to > medication? Or does that not apply to you? > Some people have mild major depression which can often > be treated in short order; the person who has it may be lucky, and they > may never have another depressive episode after they are properly > treated with cognitive/medicine protocol.  After 4 episodes of major > depression, the patient is usually treated with some antidepressant for > the rest of their life.  Severe major depression maybe a case that is > hard to treat, and the patient is more suicidal or non-functional.  If > the patient suffers with general anxiety disorder (very common) along > with their major depression, the pathologic condition is harder to > treat.  Any person suffering from any mental disease should be open to > all areas of mental health, and they should not think their condition is > really that much different from any other neurotransmitter abnormality. > I do wish the real nut cases posting to this group, including the > scientologist bunch, would stick to medicine related questions and > answers. > Ahem. I’m waiting for you to begin. > An interesting note and relevant to the reason for the newsgroup:  After > suffering horrible migraines (eventually they were daily – up to 8 hour > or more) and increased vasomotor rhinitis for 3 years, I found the > reasons for this phenomena after lots of trials (weaning on and off > drugs — and going without medicine while suffering the hell of ‘major’ > depression — TRUE GRIT).  I found Effexor, Paxil,(a > few other antidepressants possibly) and diazepam some how screwed up the > amine/neurotransmitter balance causing my migraines. My guess is an > increased histamine production or some weird vaso reaction caused by the > same cells (basophiles and others) involved in serotonin production or > uptake.  Possibly blood platelets may have been involved.  The same > reaction is initiated by NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) > in my system.  Even after a few aspirin are taken (time element > decreased), a migraine starts within 15 – 30 minutes. > A quick perusal of Medline reveals that your reaction is totally > idiosyncratic; I cannot find so much as a case report which shows any other > person reacting to those medications in this way. > However, looking at the pharmacokinetics of the meds you named reveals one > key point; they all rely on and affect the activity of the hepatic P450 > isozyme 2D6. My guess is that you have very low 2D6 activity. The range of > activity between individuals is greater than 100-fold, with the least > activity most commonly found in white people of northern European descent. > Your reaction to acetylsalycilate is also idiosyncratic, but again, I would > look to liver enzymes for the triggering reaction. All blood flowing past > the gut first passes through the liver. ASA induces some enzymes, while also > permanently inhibiting others (e.g. cylco-oxygenase). > A person must > take it upon him or herself to study their illnesses as much as > possible; so, they can aid their doctor (which should be a trained > psychiatrist – after evaluation by a trained psychologist — GPs should > not be treating major depression). > I’m in absolute agreement here. > I’m taking Celexa and Klonopin now > without the migraines or increased rhinitis misery — thank God!!!!!!! > Celexa uses P450 2C19, while clonazepam utilizes 3A4. Sounds like a good

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Response:

> Thank you Larry for clarifying the use of the term ‘unipolar’.  I have > noted you do discuss matters pertaining to depression medications. > Don’t get upset.  I do lurk and observe the many posts to this news > group, but I have seen so many nut cases I grew weary of following the > threads.  I’ve posted to this news group many times over the last > several years, and I have got help from some suggestions by those who > I’m sorry my verbose remarks seemed like a personal attack; they were > not meant to.  I did learn from your response to my peeved post.

Apology accepted. The references I made were to liver enzymes, which have profound effects on drug metabolism. My gut feeling was that you were not having an unusual immune reaction mediated by basophils, nor one mediated by platelets. I hope that whenever you take drugs you do a Google search. For example, desipramine P450 will tell you what liver enzyme system is used to detoxify what your body sees as a poison, the desipramine. Anything else using that particular system of detox will also be affected. I was only trying to point out that there was a different way to look at the drugs, their phamacokinetics, which didn’t seem to enter into your thinking. Regards, Larry

Response: